[Tizen General] Tizen platform development tools survey : dropping 32bit linux support
danderson at joobworld.com
Tue Sep 24 00:32:17 GMT 2013
Theres also the fact 'mobile' is relative, given the current progress of
phone/tablet hardware the need for a desktop is getting rapidly smaller
even for a development env, given 64bit ARM is only just reaching consumer
products and the likely hood the mobile OS itself will be the development
environment going forward, not being able to self host on 32bit seems to me
to be shooting oneself in the foot.
On 23 September 2013 23:18, Carsten Haitzler <tizen at rasterman.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Sep 2013 13:46:48 +0300 Artem Bityutskiy
> <artem.bityutskiy at linux.intel.com> said:
> > On Mon, 2013-09-23 at 19:08 +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > > On Mon, 23 Sep 2013 12:42:34 +0300 Artem Bityutskiy
> > > <artem.bityutskiy at linux.intel.com> said:
> > >
> > > > Hi JF,
> > > >
> > > > there is a lot of confusion in this thread about what are you going
> > > > do and why.
> > > >
> > > > And frankly, the announcement is guilty in that. You did not
> > > > and nicely explain what exactly you do, and why exactly, and which
> > > > would be affected and how exactly.
> > > >
> > > > I suggest you guys to come up with a new good survey description.
> > > > sure it answers the above questions. Also, go through this thread,
> > > > out what confused people, and make sure you have a Q&A section in
> > > > new survey, and the section clears the confusion.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks!
> > > >
> > > > P.S. What I found out from talking to people, _not_ from the
> > > >
> > > > 1. The intended change _only_ affects mic and gbs, nothing else.
> > > > 2. The change is about stopping producing i586 mic and gbs builds.
> > > > tools will still have i586 builds.
> > > > 3. The change _does not_ mean that mic/gbs won't be able to generate
> > > > i586 images.
> > > > 4. On the opposite, x86_68 mic/gbs _will_ be able to generate i586
> > > > images.
> > > > 5. So this will only limit people in choosing their _build host_, not
> > > > the _target Tizen OS_.
> > > >
> > > > Right?
> > >
> > > that's what i'm assuming. :) and here i assume that tizen SHOULD be
> > > self-hosting.
> > Why? :) Is Android self-hosting, for example? :-)
> i don't much care, BUT every distribution i know if *IS* and tizen is a
> distribution, it is not android. android is a totally foreign OS.
> > > that means a tizen install (on a hypothetical tizen pc laptop or
> > > a tizen tablet or phone or ivi system - who cares) SHOULD be able to,
> > > some added pkgs, have gbs, mic, gcc, toolchains etc.
> > Hypothetical Tizen PC - sure, sounds natural.
> and at that point it's game over. people are working on tizen pc already.
> its not hypothetical. it's real for some already.
> > Mobile/IVI? Not sure. IVI - may be (have not heard arguments or real
> > usage stories yet), Mobile - less sure. Really, I do not know. I'd love
> > to find this out as an outcome of this survey. :-)
> how is mobile different to a pc? if i have a tablet and a keyboard
> should i not be able to do do development on it? todays phones and tablets
> faster than the pc you did top end development on a few years back. with as
> much or more memory and much faster "disk", and well enough of it. i don't
> need a keyboard. touchscreen will do. and see below about tizen pc.
> > So if you really need to run MIC/GBS on a Phone/IVI system running
> > Tizen, tell some about your use-case.
> tizen pc. enough said. mobile is no different other than default ui style.
> os is the same from the point of view of gbs/qemu/builds etc.
> > Remember, this is also about resources. Is it best to spend time on
> > 32-bit support now vs working on other things.
> 32bit is REAL. TODAY. most people in the office have ONLY 32bit distro
> because the early sdk's only supported 32bit. installing a 64bit distro is
> exceedingly painful due to restrictions on the network, and thnigs like
> thumbdrives and removable media being banned/disallowed (without jumping
> through hoops), so people dont just install a new distro whenever they feel
> like it. it will pretty much mean several days of downtime and a lot of
> > > installed just like any distro,
> > > and then i should be able to use that tizen running device (be it ix86,
> > > x86_64 or arm or arm64) to build tizen entirely from nothing to working
> > > image (building tizen here means build a running working target image
> > > ix86, x86-64, arm, arm64 or for that matter any other architectures we
> > > end up supporting, if any).
> > Again, I am not sure many people would do this on a Tizen phone. And
> > the survey was about finding out if anyone really uses a 32-bit system
> > to build Tizen images "from nothing", would these mind to switch to a
> > 64-bit system, etc. They need some numbers, details.
> > > if removing support for 32bit means "giving up on qemu 32bit address
> > > bugs" and thus making 32bit hosts unable to run gbs etc. etc. to run a
> > > build to product an arbitrary architecture output, then i think that
> > > be embarrassing that we can't self host.
> > I agree self-host is great and a high bar and indication of quality
> > maturity. Are we on that level? I wish we would. But right now we do not
> > even sign Tizen repos, and Tizen images, although it is 21st century,
> > and people care about security. We do not sign git tags too. Do we have
> > git history on all projects? Things like this are _more_ embarrassing to
> > me than being not able to build a Tizen image on a Tizen phone... The
> > latter is not even embarassing, IMHO.
> > So I'd try to be practical and look at reality/priorities/goals and
> > resources available. Would you like help with 32-bit issues the tools
> > people hit? :-)
> > --
> > Best Regards,
> > Artem Bityutskiy
> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <tizen at rasterman.com>
> General mailing list
> General at lists.tizen.org
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